Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating vs 50 Cent - Ayo Technology (Who sampled who?)
May 13th, 2008I saw this video where it is claimed that Timbaland (And in the extension 50 Cent) stole the riff for Ayo Technology from Crystal Castles’ Courtship Dating. An interesting assertion, but allow me to demonstrate why this is most likely not the case. I’ve already written a previous post about CC and the copyright controversy, and I’ve got a few search enginge hits with queries like “Crystal Castles Timbaland” so why not sort this out once for all?
Quick Lesson: Sampling vs Sequencing of arpeggios
Time to analyze the sound. First a quick lesson about what the sound consists of. The characteristic chip effect heard in both song is a fast arpeggio, ie a number of notes played in quick succession. This technique was used to play chords on old sound chips because they only had a limited number of channels. (Often 3 or 4) Arpeggios were (and are) so widely used in classic video game music that they have become reminiscent of that era. (And they are still being used in today’s chip music, of course)
In essence, an arpeggio is nothing but a melody, although a fast one. Usually arpeggios in old-style trackers (which is what these music sequencers are called) the arpeggio are in sync with the general tempo of the song. This is design choice was not made for estethical reasons, but for practical ones. It’s simply hard to program software that plays an arpeggio out of sync with the global tempo of the song. (When targetting a low spec computer platform)
The main point is that a sequenced arpeggio will keep its tempo regardless of the key the chord is played in.
If you sample something (Anything, not a just arpeggios) the situation is different. If you pitch something up or down, not only the pitch will be changed, but also the tempo*. Think of it as a vinyl record on a record player. If you slow the record down a bit you can lower the pitch by, say, a semitone, but in the same time the record will play about 6% slower.
The main point here is that when chaing the pitch of something you’ve sampled (without using special techniques) you’ll also change the tempo.
*There are ways around this, using so called time-streching, but that’s not relevant to this argument.
Who sampled and who sequenced?
What does this mean for the comparison between these tracks?
Let’s have a listen at a clip from Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating.
Download Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating
It’s a 5 bar loop, where the last bar is a repetition of the first one. As you can hear, the speed of the arpeggio is different, depending on which key it’s played in. Apart from that, the arpeggio is (grossly) out of sync with the overall tempo. This clearly indicates that CC took a sample of an arpeggio from somewhere, looped it, loaded it into a sampler and played it at different keys.
Let’s listen to a clip of 50 Cent - Ayo Technology instead.
Download 50 Cent - Ayo Technology
This is a 2 bar loop (Or possibly 4 bar, depending on which tempo you think it is) The arpeggio is in sync with the overall tempo, and the it remains the same tempo no matter which key it’s played in. This indicates that this is either an original creation by Timbaland, or if it is ripped from a C64 tune, at least he took the effort to record it in sync with the rest of the song. Pay special attention to the transition between D#m and C#m in Timbaland’s version. (See the chord notation below) It’s smooth and keeps in tempo even during that fast transition.
If he sampled it from CC, he would’ve needed to apply a lot of micro-editing in order to get it in sync with the overall tempo.
The Chord Progressions
What about the chords?
According to the comments for this video, the chord progression in Ayo Technology could be either G#m, D#m, C#m or G#m, F#, E. (D#m and F# are similar to each other, and so are C#m and E.)
CC’s version has about the same progression of chords, but the chords are played in a slightly flatter key. It’s about one semitone flat compared to Timbaland’s, but not exactly. CC’s arpeggio is slightly out of tune with regard to the standard 12-tone scale, whereas Timballand’s arpeggio is perfectly in tune with the 12-tone scale.
So, the chord progression is the same, but different in timing. Both play the brightest chord first, the middle chord in the middle, and the flattest chord last.
CC plays the brightest chord during one bar, (Corresponding to G#m above) the middle one for one bar (Corr. to D#m/F#) and then the dimmest chord for two bars(Corr. to C#m/E)
Timba on the other hand plays the G#m for the whole first bar, then a D#m/F# for the most of the second bar, and finally C#m/E for a short portion of the second bar.
Or to put it graphically:
| Bar | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |
| Ayo Technology | G#m | G#m | D#m | D#m,C#m |
| Courtship Dating | G#m (-1 semitone) | D#m (-1 semitone) | C#m (-1 semitone) | C#m (-1 semitone) |
All in all, CC’s production is far worse than that of Timbaland. It would’ve taken alot of work in order to shape up it up to how it sounds in Ayo Tech. Considering the things CC did “wrong” (Their arpeggio is out of sync and out tune) and the things Timbaland did “right” (His arpeggio is in sync and in tune) it’s highly unlikely that Timbaland sampled CC’s arpeggio.
It might very well be that he listened to their song and decided to mimic the sound of it, but did he sample it, no, most likely not!
The Rest of the Story / the Verdict
Let’s look at the things surrounding the story. The video in the beginning of the post mentions a lawsuit where CC won over Timbaland. I’ve googled for this lawsuit and I haven’t found anything substantial. I’ve found a couple of references to the video linked in the beginning of the post, but nothing more than that. (Edit: Ooops, the video just says “Timbaland Loses”, without a reference to any lawsuit. My bad.)
The video also mentions the year for Courtship Dating is 2006, and then says “Fast forward one year to 2007″. This is a bit of a stretch. The first public appearance for this song was in December 2006 (link to video) and still a bit into 2007 they said they still hadn’t recorded the songs in a studio. I don’t remember where I read that, but if I find it again, I’ll post it here. Ayo Technology was released in July 2007. (Source) So 6 months is a better estimate I think.
Anyway, here’s my take on it: The chord progression is actually pretty generic. I think the two songs were created independently of each other, and that CC decided to jump on the train and spread a rumour when they heard Ayo Technology, to receive attention after Timbaland’s recent sampling of Janne Suni’s (Tempest’s) Acidjazzed Evening.
We might never know for sure.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
[...] Crystal Castles - Courtship Dating vs 50 Cent - Ayo Technology (Who sampled who?) [...]
May 13th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Hey, this is Nick from Nedry is Born.
First of all, that’s really funny about the videos I posted. I actually found those videos at random in a recent YouTube adventure, and the Dr. Phil picture I found on Wikipedia! Pretty funny. And I’m sorry, but I use Firefox! Still, though, pretty cool!
I agree with your ultimate conclusion here that the two songs were produced separately. The arpeggios don’t sound quite the same. It sounds to me that Timbaland’s arpeggios are still sampled, though, because they seem to change with the different chord, at least to my ears. But the two arpeggios seem fairly different in nature.
Still, unless Timbaland really has a SidStation, I’m sure he sampled it from something. This guy has a theory about it, though.
I’ll be reading your blog!
May 16th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I actually met Ethan of CC in glasgow last week before a gig.
I asked him this and he claimed that ‘fiddy’ stole it off him but just played it slower…
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:39 am
who sampled who?
a better question is which old video game did they both sample the tune from?
May 26th, 2008 at 6:14 am
“It would’ve taken alot of work in order to shape up it up to how it sounds in Ayo Tech.”
Not really.
Ableton. Or ProTools.
Time stretch.
Takes about 5 minutes in Ableton.
*shrug*
May 26th, 2008 at 6:15 am
“*There are ways around this, using so called time-streching, but that’s not relevant to this argument.”
umm why, when that’s what probably Timbaland used? Why isn’t it relevant? Very odd.
June 2nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
If the 8bitz sample CDs are still up on waffles, audiowarez etc you can find the sample wich timba used there. GLHF
June 4th, 2008 at 9:26 am
im sorry, but i think youre holding a grudge againist CC on account of your previous thoughts on their supposed sampling of other artists, and i actually find it ironic that theyre quite blatantly sampled here, yet you come to the rescue of big pop star producer.
good job being a hypocrite, considering it was even you who mentioned that CC has the money to pay for (im paraphrasing here) ‘big lawers and legal fees’
if anyone can pay off legal fees, its tim.
furthermore, your semitone analysis is actually the perfect evidence of as to why CC was indeed sampled here, considering tim has any bloody program he damn well pleases at his disposal, and could ‘clean’ up such a simple sample rather efficiently. even though you mention doing so could be rather time consuming, so does this whole rant that proves the opposite. plus, its not lie tim doesnt have a bit of time, eh?
in conclusion, nice try, but you gave to much evidence and fucked yourself over by doing so. better luck CC bashing next time.
amen
June 4th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Aammenn Iscariot:
When I started investigating the case of 50 Courtship Dating vs Ayo Technology, I did so with an open mind. I didn’t have any preconceptions about whether Timbaland sampled CC, nobody sampled the other or CC sampled Timbaland. (Heck, who knows?)
The reason I care is 1) becauseI’ve already written one post about CC 2) because Courtship Dating vs Ayo Technology wasn’t properly documented anywhere else.
I’ve compared the two songs in every way I could come up with. Listening to the songs by ear over and over, looking at the spectrum analysis, comparing the release dates. And my conclusion was in the end that this wasn’t a match.
I base my conclusion on sound analysis, you base yours on fanship. Who’s the most trustworthy?
How giving too much evidence in a case like this is bad, is beyond me.
They’re both sawtooth arpeggios with about the same chord sequence, but that’s where the similarities end. Also, which such a generic sound, and in CC’s case flawed, I don’t see why Timbaland would like to sample it in the first place, considering all the time and work it would take. From his point of view it would be easier to just play the chords himself and that way get them in perfect sync. (And I’m not saying that didn’t happen)
June 5th, 2008 at 3:17 am
Oi your going into the argument one sided which isnt very fair, CC are good and make good music. ive listened to both songs and they do sound similar but very different aswell. Different notes and timing makes them differ from eachother, but my thought is that they didnt copy eachother. Timbaland wouldnt have the time to fiddle around and copy CC’s beat, and on the other hand CC wouldnt steal the beat as it is a very simple beat and could be made easily and doesnt need to be copied from Timbaland.
finally id rather listen to Courtship dating than some crap ay technology bull crap. CC sounds wayyy better
peace
June 5th, 2008 at 3:43 am
What I say about Courtship Dating is not a value judgement. If you listen to the sound you can objectively say it’s a bit out of sync, as well as a bit out of tune, according to Audition’s auto-tuner. (And I’m not talking about the transposition here, their arpeggio is a few cents out of tune with the chromatic scale)
These things are the facts. Then it’s up to each and everyone to make a subjective judgement whether it sounds good or not. My point was not to subjectively say that CC are “bad” because these details in their sound, or to say that Ayo Technology sounds “better” than Courstship Dating. But rather to point out that’s it’s more likely that Timbaland recorded his arpeggio from a synth rather than sampling it from CC.
Apart from that, your (mitcheeell’s) comment summarizes my post well.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Wow I was surprised this was an article on here. Allow me to lay this all to rest…
The sample used in Ayo Technology is a STOCK ARPEGGIO FROM FRUITY LOOPS STUDIO. If I remember correctly, its under the 3x Osc folder that comes with FL. I used this arpeggio in about a million songs when I was learning to produce and laughed when I actually heard it on the radio. I was pissed I didn’t get to it first!!!
But yeah, this arpeggio comes straight out of Fruity Loops. Check it out yourself.. The definitive proof is in the fact that the arpeggio in Ayo Technology slows down on the lower notes. It pulsates slower, just like the arpeggio included in FL. Check it out. As for Crystal Castles, they probably got it from the same place, I dunno..
June 18th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
this guy Oliver Wittchow sells these gameboy cartridges with “nanoloop” a beat making /synthesis program. if you want to write music with 8bit arpeggio sounds, these things are pretty much the way they go
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:03 am
@Nick Turco (comment 2)
Timbaland does have a SidStation it would appear: http://www.hitsquad.com/news/musicthing/toms_music_thing_-_timbaland_vs_finland_vs_sidstation/
June 24th, 2008 at 6:06 am
You say that they are simply similar yet Timbaland gives an interview stating that no two artists can come up with something similar without sampling. So He himself threw your defense for him out the window. Maybe you haven’t heard the interview yet? I’ll link it because maybe you meant something different by “similar”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JTvY3wZrHrQ&feature=related
June 29th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
I spoke to Ethan about it and he said that neither one is sample.
He said it sounded to him like Timbaland listened to the CCs song and wanted to imitate that sort of sound.
Ethan uses a sample of ETHAN playing a SIDstation on his track.
Timbaland probably used a SIDstation to create the similar sound on his track.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
@ginferno: Apart from guessing where the sounds came from originally, that was my conclusion. Thanks for the confirmation.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
@ginferno: Apart from guessing where the sounds came from originally, that was my conclusion too. Thanks for the confirmation.